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Post by Catachan Colonel on Apr 23, 2006 12:50:23 GMT -5
right the 15 pirannas, which at their crappy armor and open topness are going to last a long time against the 9 land speeder tornadoes every space marine player is gonna use, backed up by another 4 terminator assault cannons.
cause you know everyone will have 15 pirannas at $250 plus for just that.
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Post by MallSecurity on Apr 23, 2006 13:14:42 GMT -5
AV 11 Skimmers are never easy to bring down, no matter what. Plus you really only need about 3 or 4 pirhanas to effectively assault block.
It is incredibly frustrating to just slowly (or quickly) be whittled away by shooting that you can do nothing about. No dice rolled
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Apr 23, 2006 13:57:37 GMT -5
Now Tom, how will nids put up with those skimmers.
Im gonna go assault. Lets see, hit on 6, glance on a 5 or 6. Odds are not good that the nids will take them down. Maybe Jay's Big Ones could do better.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Apr 23, 2006 16:33:52 GMT -5
Gee how do nids deal with those skimmers well how about shooting them cause they only have to blow 1 up to let the hormagaunts through
who could do it? lets try tyranid warriors... armed with what you ask and rolling pathetically average how many open topped fast moving armor 11 skimmers do they kill?
Lets start with a unit of 8 tryanid warriors (not something we have not seen our nid players use after the new book came out)
Str 5 Death splitters, Str 5 flesh boarers, and str 5 devourers average destroying 0.66 per volley str 6 Deathspitters and Str 6 fleshboarers average destroying 1.3 of them Str 5 spine fists destroy on average 1 a round
gee thats lots of choices that on average usually destroy MORE THAN ONE
Did i mention you can increse the warriors balistic skill and the numbers go higher?
also your unit of str 4 termigaunts kills 1.3/round with fleshboarers on average
that is all assuming they dont just shoot under the things at the fire warriors and kill them off instead. almost negating the need to bother killing the skimmers str 5 devourers 0.66 Str 5 flesh boarers
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Sanguinary
Sergeant
WOW, his son looks strangely like Shaun,
Posts: 341
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Post by Sanguinary on Apr 23, 2006 18:28:16 GMT -5
So while my whole army focuses on your piranha the rest of your army destroys everything else. Sounds fair.
Anyhow. It is not the Tau army list that is broken it is the fact that the current rule set favors their play-style tremendously.
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Post by shaun on Apr 23, 2006 18:40:24 GMT -5
I'm just curious, how do strength 4 gaunts deal with armor 11 vehicles?
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Post by dragons3 on Apr 23, 2006 20:05:56 GMT -5
HAY SHAWN, GAUNTS WORK THE SAME WAY THAT ANYTHING ELSE WITH STRENGTH 3 OR 4 DOES, VERY POORLY. HOW DO ARMOR 11 VEHICLES DO AGAINST ARMOR 14 VEHICLES, WITH THE SAME BASIC WEAPON STRENGTH AND BS? ACTUALLY COLONEL CATACHAN HAS A GOOD TAKE ON NID'S,I PLAY THEM AT ABOUT 1/2 THAT HE HAS DESCRIBED. THIS HOLE THREAD WAS AN OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO GET TOMMY GOING. YOU GUYS LOVE TURNING HIM FROM A CALM COOL COLLECTIVE FELLOW INTO A CANTANKEROUS STATISTICAL RANGING MANIAC, AND I HELPED. ;D ;D ;D HAVE A NICE DAY!
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Post by shaun on Apr 23, 2006 21:03:32 GMT -5
I was just asking in regards to Tommy's statement:
also your unit of str 4 termigaunts kills 1.3/round with fleshboarers on average
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Post by MallSecurity on Apr 24, 2006 1:36:21 GMT -5
Not to mention even if they manage to destroy every skimmer on the board, you still lose a full round of movement (because shooting comes after movement) which is key.
They should be able to buy you at least another full round of shooting, which should be enough to put any Tyranid, Ork, or any other walking assault army.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Apr 24, 2006 7:55:02 GMT -5
how do your str 4 hormagaunts deal with the armor 11 skimmer?
the same way they deal with a armor 14 land raider... they let the other supporting fire units of the army crack it open and do what they do best charge the things that are behind or inside assault.
maybe they let thst spore mine inflict 2 automatic glancing hits which 50% of the time destroy the piranna (sounds like a piranna killer unit to me)
Its a lot likewhat does your unit of Guardsmen with lazguns do about that toughness 7 carnifex with a barbed strangler? They let some other supporting unit kill it and do something else.
The tau seem to have mastered a art of usinf supporting units to help other units out. (Skimmers to block charges to units behind) Maybe their opponets need to master the art of supporting units.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Apr 24, 2006 8:09:31 GMT -5
First off, I am somewhat amazed that my sem retarded son made a thread that generated some decent discussion. Now that the shock is beginning to wear off, here is my take...
I do think that Tau are broken now, in that GW took a great shooty army, possible the best under the new rules, and made it even better. Tau were already a fair match for any marine player, as well as being d**n near impossible to beat with an assualt based army. I think GW play testing ( what a joke that they even claim to do this!! ) must have been done ny some retarded chimps or GW board members, same thing right? Tau was one of the codexes that least needed a rewrite, so why was it done? Answer, to generate more sales which in itself is OK, but what I see occuring is an over the top army that will drive sales down for all the rest of the armies that are not competitive versus Tau.
On to the pluses and minus. Hmm, what is better, what is worse? Let's see what is better...
1) You can stack market lights so that all you big weapons can now hit on a 2. That's prety f-ing good! 2) You now have the Piranha Wall of Death to hide behind. 15 piranhas may be overkill and a point sink too, but I believe this effect can be accomplished quite well with 6-9 for sure. Tactic, put up an assualt barrier and shot the crap out of whatever comes close. By the time the opponent breaches the wall, his force is affectively reduced below combat streghth. Couple this with some Kroot or Vespid as a counter assault and believe Tau have nothing to fear. 3) As mentioned earlier, Vespid. I like that GW added new models and expanded the line, but unlike lets say, Repentia or Penitent Engines, Vespid actually are good and will be used. A counter assualt with their strength 3 guns takes care of any marines that were foolish enough to get in close to the fire warriors. 4) Kroot squad upgrades. I like this rule. I like anything that takes an unusable model ( Krootex ) and makes it playable. This was a good decision but again it was a solid improvement too.
On the downside I only see one in my list...
1) Etherals must be in line of sight to benefit from the leadership of the etheral. This is a change from what was earlier, and no in a good way, arguably it sucks since a marine commander does not have the line of sight restriction to test on his leadership, but for all the "greater goodness" previously outlined, I would take this trade off if I were a Tau player.
So in conclusion, Tau are broken in that they may prove to be a gamebreaker. While I enjoyed the challenge before, the last thing I want to see at any tourney is wave after wave of Tau armies to fight. I would have rather seen Orks get a new codex, or Eldar, or maybe even Xenos Hunters too, but then again that would be logical and something our British friend across the big pond seem to be incapable of using.
Just my humble opinion, feel free to discuss amongst yourselves...
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 24, 2006 9:59:30 GMT -5
I think this goes back to a previous discussion somewhat. Is it the rules or the players.
I don't think the Tau are Broken. Tough as nuts, yes. But not broken. They are an army easily manipulated into cheese. But against good opponents who play it balanced, not a big deal. I think like most new armies, it will take a little time to figure out the countertactics for Tau. Oh yes, I mentioned the word tactics. hard to believe that in a table top war game you would have to use tactics. 40k has been somewhat lacking in this department for a while. The Tau might be a step in the right direction for this. They certainly use tactics with their combined arms approach and some of the battle plans I've seen from them. So now it's up to the other armies to figure out how to do the same. What a shame.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Apr 24, 2006 10:12:13 GMT -5
Doug is that just the booze talkin ;D And AMEN brother Ranger, there has been a serious lack of trying anything NEW out of old armies that finf their standard approach has weakened. stack marker lights to hit on 2s??? the big weapons coulda hit on 2s before, now the big weapons take twice the marker lights. how many markerlights to make a broadside hit on a 2 (two of them) Vespid all metal and boy will they get their 1 round of fire before assaulted and killed and when are they gonna get close enough when they will be fired down by bolter equivellents. While i agree the Tau were not screaming we need a new codex, there were rules holes, poor designs and bad units, they fixed these. and before anyone says they were still new.. they were the third oldest full codex with no updates I would have liked to see them do eldar first. Some people will say orks but there is nothing missing or broken in orks. (I would like a reprint with updated 4th edition wargear so one dosnt need to look up their wargear in a diffrent book.) But really they have assault units shooty units, ordinance, jetpacks, infiltrators, bikes, cheep throw away units, terminator type units, dreadnoughts, cheap fast transports, shooty vehicles, big ass boss characters, ap3 shooty units, heavy weapon units units with better strength units with better armor... they have big tanks with high front armor... what really is missing? any more that missing from tau. (Make note i still would like orks up in 6 - 9 months on the to do list for their brush up but not overhaul codex) as they will be my next force.
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Post by shaun on Apr 24, 2006 11:50:44 GMT -5
Wow Tommy, you should be in sales! You actually made the Orks sound like they should be the best army out there and never lose!!!
Of course, in reality we know that not to be the case. Why? cause they have weaknesses that can always be exploited through the use of TACTICS.
All we are trying to point out is that the Tau have fewer weaknesses to effectivly exploit TACTICALLY than compared to other armies. Does this mean that they will always win? No, cause it is a game that uses random luck in its equation.
I do however applaud your "Republican" train of thought and methods in trying to disuade the majority opinion. ;D
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 24, 2006 13:38:13 GMT -5
Wow, i cannot believe you even whet there. Orks have everything they need? Dude what are you smoking? UNless your playing a feral list your playing an up hill battle from turn one.
Granted we have a huge list of "stuff" we can take but its not effective or as effective as anythin tau can take with perhaps a few exceptions. Majority of orks have 6+ save, open topped low armored vehicles that every weapon (save the vespids) the tau have can hurt (even thier rifles! ) effectivley. LONGER range (OMG if orks dont go first!) Mega expensive flash gits/lootas (ineffective)? Why take stick bommas?
The bikes are a great unit...perhaps the only thing that can get to the tau and punch a hole into them. Smart player will get rid of these ASAP. No amount of terrain will hide 5 bikes much less anything more. Seeker missles dont need LOS right? Even if hidden they die.
So tau kill bikes first, wreck any vehicles that are in 30 range, then mop up any walking units. against tau im scooping off 10-20 orks a turn. Eventually nothing is left. Even if you do bring that big Battle wagon or Looted russ, you got str sitting some where on a tank or broad sides to get rid of it.
On average your seeing nice rokkits, and a zzap gun for antitank. Against skimmers...hmmm.
Anything that walks wont mak it to tau, they keep backing up, they keep pounding you with their fire power.
Tactics huh? yeah ok...this game has become so watered down Im begging to wonder if there is any tactics left? It has become create a list to wreck all others...or WAAC. Now is this the PLayers fault or GW's? Its it up to the player to show some restraint and not make these WAAC lists, show a little initatve to the people that just want to have fun, or is it GW's fault for creating the ever going trend of the flavor of the month and uber armies?
The new rule set Deffinatly support the tau more! Shooting is huge now! Walking assualt against them is very diffacult. Transports with the entanglement rule, the compounding of Immobilised and Weapons destroyed, the rhino rush eliminated..are feeble now, unless your also a skimmer, which helps a little.
Tau give me heartburn everytime I play them now, kinda like marines. Because pretty much I can sit down and say a few things that will be true in almost every game: 1.) Nothing of his is ever going to come across center point of the table unless its an objective that forces him too or its to his advantage to. 2.) He is just going to sit there with most of his models and shoot me to death. 3.) He is going to avoid combat like a disease 4.)My options are sit here and try to out shoot a better army at shooting or Go head long into the fray and pray I get EXTREMELY lucky! (im not hiding a 30 mob of orks behind any piece of terrain)
hmmm fun?
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