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Post by deathwing on Apr 25, 2006 20:45:49 GMT -5
Well sob, can't imagine why people aren't responding. Doesn't matter what tau players say in support others will spin the response into more tau bashing. Yeah so they are a shooty non assault army.Hate to brake it to you but its a mobile force and makes sense to use that mobility.
They have markerlights! ooooh. and a BS of 3. So out of the 6 PF I take 2 hit. Gotta make sure I don't spend all those marker lights in one place.. FOF! Overrated. Nothing like dumping 20 shots where a third hit, half wound and all are saved by 3+ armor. THen your firewarrior team gets wiped out by the typical vet sgt with Pfist and accompaning meat shields.Tau look nice and rosey till you play it on the table. As for orks or nids getting shot up yeah it sucks and perhaps those armies will have to beef up a bit in expectation. I don't own either codex nor have the knowledge of the armies to make EDUCATED THOUGHT OUT suggestions. I do remember getting wiped out on the 4th turn by assaulty armies in 3rd edition so maybe this is GWs sick sense of humor.
Rons right, people are gonna make WAAC tau lists. What do you want to hear about it? Do we at the store who play tau do that? I would hope that if so then one of you says something about it.
And if your panties are bunched that bad then come and check out Flames of War this thursday. Good rules, smaller, easier to paint minis and its fun.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Apr 25, 2006 21:02:03 GMT -5
First off, climb down off you high horse E. No my painties are not bunched, etc, I am saying that Tau to a wonderfully shooty army that was played quite affectively by Terry, Tommy, and Ben and made it over the top. There were d**n few ways to beat it, now I don't see any really. Let me remind you of the first tourney with Tau Empire legal.. First place-Tom playing Tau Empire, Second place-Ben playing Tau Emire... I hope this isn't a pattern.
As for thursday, I work but I do like the Flames of War game and wouln't mind checking it out sometime.
As for my questions, they are still unanswered, ever by you E. Look like the WAAC option is the only choice and that the lack of any other response kinda sums it up. So much for "fair and balanced"...RIP
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Post by deathwing on Apr 25, 2006 21:41:42 GMT -5
High horse, heh. No offense meant but I get heated when for months I've been collecting tau and then as soon as an updated (I agree they didn't need it) codex is released its "broken". Why did I buy the stuff if people won't play against it. I haven't had good success with it either. What is your interpretation of a fair and balanced list? The old comp rules where 40% has to be spent on troops, yada yada? What army? I'm not saying WAAC is the only answer but that your gonna see it. Tactics? Well, one of Tau's tactics is VP denial by moving so play the same game. Make them come to you. Take care to keep out of LOS of the railguns. Bait the FOF with a tempting unit then shoot them when they deploy. Might lose one unit but you may also take out one or more FW squads plus devilfish. Or move an assault unit close enough so after the shooting they can jump in and finish them off. One of the first things I would do is eliminate any deployed pathfinders. Use flamers on kroot or artillery if available.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Apr 25, 2006 22:46:12 GMT -5
Vet Sgt E, I agree it is preferable to let them come to you, but most missions penalize armies with low mobility now. Most Tau players will never advance any farther than they have to, since thier rail rifles have better range that bolters, why not sit back and take full advantage of that. I have alot of respect for the Tau players and do not mean to imply that anyone is now a "bandwagon rider" who plays them, but the way I see it the scales just got tilted in the direction of the Tau, hopefully not in to the point of making the game unfair. Sorry I cant play Thursdays, hopefully you can make RIT this weekend.
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 26, 2006 0:37:10 GMT -5
You know, I'm one of the first to admit I'm not the best tactician, or really good at army design for that matter. I realize that a big part of this is due to the fact that I play to the story rather than to the game. Most of my armies are unconventional. But I've never had an opponent complain that my army was just like every other army of that type either. And when I find something isn't working, I change it. Last Den Tourney I got hosed due to vehicles showing up against my rangers. Still had fun (And with their system still scored points too.) Since then I have been revamping my list to deal with vehicle issues while still trying to stay true to the theme. Had some success so far. Point being I'm trying something different. That's how you figure out how to beat someone. I haven't played enough games against the Tau to have them figured out yet. Few of us have probably. Instead of complaining that they are over the top or that whoring out your army is the only way to beat them, go out and play them more until you do figure it out. Sure, you may get your ass kicked some, but you learn more from losing than you do from winning. It's hard to adjust when everything seems to go right.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 26, 2006 2:07:25 GMT -5
Dragon, WTF are you talking about. If you have a problem come out and say it. No one else seems to be supporting your claims, be it that they dont understand you or they dont agree with you. I can however, bring up valid issues (that make sense) and are on topic with the TAU. Anyways....im going to get back on topic because im done arguing with you. Oh and yeah, Im sorry but I dont play childish games like you suggest. "I bet you cant do it" Man, grow up. So it would seem that then the ultimate answer to this issue would be Cheese out or go home, as per Vet Sgt E and Ranger Dude, maybe Im misreading it but ultimately thats what it looks like you 2 are saying. Maybe this post is a way of telling people something. I dont know I could be wrong. But it does seem to have some issues with the same people that keep coming up again and again. People may say that FOF is over rated but it seems to be on the top of the winning list alot. And that the tau are the amry that plays VP denial...well thats probably the most Irritating game there is to play against. But Yeah people will play those armies whether you complain about them or debate the issue or not. Its easy to say well thats they way the amry was made, or thats how Tau are when they are on top (as they are now) Mind you let me say one thing here and I will put this in caps so all can see it: THE TAU CODEX BEING REDONE HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH HOW GOOD THEY ARE NOW. THE CURRENT RULES SET SUPPORTS THE ARMY VASTLY. Now hopefully people will see that im not "complaining" about the codex. JFC! on a personal note: I just dont see why I cannot make an army I like and play a competitive game against any army. This is the biggest downfall of this game/hobby.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Apr 26, 2006 5:43:47 GMT -5
Tau are over the top?
They really don’t have that many things that Marines don’t have and do better
Basic marine shooting hit tau on 3s and wound on 3s and give a 4+armor Basic Tau shooting hit on 4s would on 3s and give a 3+armor Tau are also more likely to breat with a wopping Ld 8
How about indirects, both are str 5 but marines are cheaper and can hit more and can cause pinning (with a -1) and have double the range and have ap4 (which tears through a tau)
How about heavy weapon potential lazcannons vrs Railcannons max rail cannons =9 Max laz cannons is 25 and a marine with laz cannon is cheaper they can get more bullet catchers in the unit at the same cost.
Skimmers with meltas: (land speeders vrs piranna) Land Speeders get a Heavy Flamer back up weapon, Tau get 2 piddly gun drones, The Marines get Double the range they are closed top, The tau do somehow have a tiny bit better front armor (All at about comparable cost)
Big Tank Predator vrs hammerhead Predators have more anti infantry shots at better range and better AP Predators hands down are better tank killers with 3 possible anti tank shots. Hammer heads have a slightly stronger main gun but its not twin linked and the tau cost more. Once again every predator weapon rips through tau the same can not be said about the hammer head vrs marines.
Doug You made a case that tau are over the top, would you care to point out where they are over the top, you seem to be able to beat marines who have a lot of what tau have only better, and marines can actually fight you in hand to hand. If you can beat marines who have all that stuff better maybe you just need to think a little about how to beat tau, Hint you may actually have to change the composition of your army, much like those elder players who gave up banshees when orks were popular.
New Codex won its first tournament after it came out, what like the marines did and Chaos did. (I seem to remember that was the beginning of Ron’s real streak of domination) I think Norton won one after the new nid book came out, the only ones recently who didn’t were the templar, but how many people here play templar?
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 26, 2006 7:58:22 GMT -5
Ron, please show me where I say cheesing out is the answer. I don't remember saying any such thing, and looking back at my posts I can't seem to find it in writing either. What I said is change things up and try something different. I am the last person to suggest cheese. When has anyone complained that my army is cheesy. Even when I played BA, my armies were still unconventional, and people often noted that my lists weren't over the top or even typical of the lists. My win loss record certainly seems to suggest a lack of power gaming.
So I ask again, where have I EVER suggested cheese?
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Post by deathwing on Apr 26, 2006 9:05:46 GMT -5
I"d also like to clarify that the comment about beefing nids/orks was in reguards to anothers (hence the capitals) uneducated suggestions. I don't support power gaming and like I said if a list I was using looked like it I would hope someone would say something.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 26, 2006 14:56:13 GMT -5
Both you and vet sargt E, said (in short words) that if you dont win against tau change your list so that you can. Or expect tau to be an opponent and arrange your army to fight them.
an in so many more word basically you go on to say change your list so that you can beat tau.
So this comes to, ok now I have to make a list directly to counter the tau power house, now this is what I call cheesing it. (Any time you specifically make an army to wreck another just for the sole purpose of winning) Remember cheese is subjective. Something that many may find cheesy to (say) marines people may not find cheesy to Imperial Guard...like plasma guns. Whoopy you killed 2 guards man without saves! I would like to avoid this persuit into cheesedom (Also not turn this conversation into whats cheesy vs whats not)
Now i dont consider myself a complete novice at the game. I would like to believe that I make competitive lists that arent over the top Like Orks and IW...but I also have my Word Bearers that are a one trick pony (one diemnsional) amry and I expect it to be thourhaly flattened here and there. But with my well thought out armys (meaining both aspects of assualt and shooting, counter assualt, vehicles vs infantry) I dont expect to be repeatedly wiped from the table.
Maybe, with the vast knowledge out there, that someone can tell me why this happens? Is it that I am a terrible tactician? (if indded there is any tactics in this game past creating your army list) Did I forget how to play? Is there something im not seeing? Perhaps you could enlighten me?
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Post by deathwing on Apr 26, 2006 15:12:52 GMT -5
If your going to quote me then don't pick apart what I said. Use the whole subject. Maybe I should have used paragraphs;
I am not saying it is what you must do to win. I am saying I don't have the codexial (made that up ;D) or tactical knowledge in reguards to these armies to give an educated suggestion on what to do.
The effect of the rules change is a bit clearer to me. I left at the end of 3rd edition and didn't get into 4th edition till over a year later. Tau were more endangered by assault in 3rd than they were in 4th. I'm still in a bit of the mindset that tau are as they were in 3rd but the core rules changed that to grant shooting armies one up on assault armies. Took me a bit to see that.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 26, 2006 15:30:34 GMT -5
hehe Codexial...Im gonna use that!
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 26, 2006 22:41:14 GMT -5
I fyou read the whole post you quoted, you will see from the example I give that I wasn't saying anything about changing your army to combat one opponent. I was saying that if you find a problem in your battles, change the army to compensate. Hence the example I gave regarding vehicles. If Tau are giving you such trouble, look at what the trouble is beyond the fact that it's Tau. Find ways to work around the problem. If it's the skimmers always being in the way, beef up anti vehicle units. If it's the range problem, find away to eliminate or balance the range advantage. Essentially, I'm saying that it doesn't mater what army gives you trouble, it's the underlying issue that matter. Odds are good that if a certain army is giving you trouble, a similar army should give you similar problems. For example, if the high mobility of the Tau is an issue, then Dark Eldar should give you the same type of trouble (Although maybe not as severe for whatever reason.) If it's the shooting, then Guard and certain marine forces should give you difficulty in those areas as well. It may just be that Tau excel in whatever area is giving you trouble to finally point out the trouble.
Remember, I agree that Tau are tough. I just don't think they're Broken. They just happen to be an army that benefits greatly from the current rules. Bugs and BA were the armies with this in the last edition. Until GW makes the perfect system (Yeah right) there will always be such armies. If you are going to stay in this hobby, you have to learn to deal with it.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 27, 2006 3:19:33 GMT -5
Yes, you suggestions of altering the army is well and done. But The tau are diffrent in the snese form dark eldar. Open topped and low armor vehicles are one thing...How many rokkits will it take to take down an armor 13 skimmer? The answer is alot. More than It would seem nessasry to do so. The Tau have alot of distinct advantages of ANY army out thier in shooting. Its not just the short comings of one army, its that the advantages the Tau have in this edition is greater than any other army has right now and I think thats where alot of this discusion is coming from.
You can only alter an army so much before it becomes inane. I dont want to play an Ork army that has 54 rokkits that defeats the point of the game that "I" want to play, just so I can compete with a Tau army. Its not just thier tank either. They can out shooy Orks form a great distance and STAY out of range with little trouble. Its not a matter of just altering armies to match the tau...(beacuse now your just playing thier WAAC game).
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 28, 2006 17:10:55 GMT -5
I do see your point, and you may be right. I guess I haven't played the new Tau enough to really know for sure yet. I've already made a few changes in my Eldar due to issues I've run into recently. I'll have to see how they do against the Tau if I have a chance.
A possible note. Could this issue be due to the army going against the Tau? In other words, are there armies that don't have as much trouble with them? I can definately see where a foot slogging Ork horde would have issues. Bugs too. But what about guard, marines, Eldar, etc. Do armies that are not foot slogging assaulters have as much trouble? The voting seems to suggest this.
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